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February 25, 2010

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I just don't get this classification. It is so intrinsically age dependent and individual that for me it all comes out in the wash. (But then maybe I am throwing the baby out with the bathwater?) Especially with young children. I mean how can you be permissive with a small child who wants to run out into traffic? Or is throwing a tantrum because he isn't allowed to bite somebody? I just can't really see anybody who is not an "uninvolved" parent actually being "permissive". A statement which probably puts me squarely in the permissive category...

@Mia: hahaha! I get what you're saying and your frustration. But oh baby! You can DEFINITELY be permissive with a small child, or RELATIVELY permissive is probably a better way to put it. I have a zero-tolerance policy for physical aggression in my house. Anyone hits or pushes anyone, they are removed from the situation, given an explanation, told what they can do as an alternative, and provided with a "do-over" opportunity. No other options available. I know people I love and respect dearly as parents (and friends) who, when their child hits or pushes, say something like "we don't hit... hands are not for hitting" and carry on with their adult conversations. The child will invariably repeat the aggression in the next few minutes. The same response will be given by the parent. In my eyes, that parent is more permissive than I am. Permissiveness doesn't have to mean that the parent doesn't care about proper or safe behaviour, its just that there are less efforts to set limits and to enforce rules. These categories, although they're set out quite absolutely and the research tries to show that there's one best way of doing it, are still all in the "healthy" range overall. And also good to remember is that it's not about any ONE behaviour, it's more the parenting CONTEXT or general philosophy that we're talking about.

Or does that not clarify anything at all?

I strive for Authoritative, it feels the most comfortable to me - teaching expected behaviors using as many natural consequences as possible but plenty of room for love and kindness and fun and forgiveness. Well, that's how I see my parenting style at its best and it seems to be most closely related to how you described authoritative. When too stressed or tired I lean towards Authoritarian I think. I don't want to instill a sense of fear though. I want him to have respect for me, for other people, for himself when he's old enough to grasp the concepts. I had too many friends growing up whose parents thought a healthy dose a fear was all the parenting needed to keep a teenager in line. And most of what I am doing now, I do with the intention that it's setting up how we interact when he's older and as big as me.

Of course these categories are useful.

I think it's also impossible to consider your own parenting style without thinking about your parents' style because that's your primary model.

These categories can be useful culturally. My culture of origin has the authoritarian style. Way authoritarian.

A way we visualized these dimensions at a parenting workshop was using X and Y axes, but the dimension missing for me was FAIRNESS. Maybe it can't be a dimension, but let me say my husband has a hard time being fair in consequence-doling while being firm and kind/warm. I always remind my husband: FIRM, KIND, FAIR.

Fairness for me has everything to do with age-appropriate consequences and not having unrealistic expectations of kids for the stage they're in. I feel parents have way too high expectations sometimes, and they demand and push kids beyond their developmental stage.

I find the categories useful, not least because it helps me defend my style (like @mom2boys, I strive for authoritative) from the accusation of being a "lax" parent. I find that some of my relatives (especially my older relatives) view anything other than "parent lays down the law and disciplines sternly if that law is violated" a lax parenting, doomed to raise a little hellion. I like the approach of having rules, but using a more collaborative approach to getting them followed. For instance, Pumpkin has to put her magnetic letters on the fridge or in the storage box at the end of the day. Sometimes, I ask and she just does it (OK, this is a rare occurrence). Sometimes, we have to make it a race but she does it pretty easily. Sometimes, she'll do it if I point out that she can't have some desired thing (like a cookie with her snack) until it is done. Sometimes, she outright refuses and ends up in time out. To me, any approach that gets my rule followed is fine at this point (she's not quite 3).

I also think that the details of my style will change as she gets older. I'd be less inclined to negotiate with a 12 year old. I'd expect her to be able to understand the rule, understand the consequence of not following the rule, and figure out how to get it done. (Feel free to check back in with me when Pumpkin is 12 and see what I think about that statement- if my past form is any indication, I'll have had to refine my thinking!)

I don't know whether I'm permissive or authoritative... ack! I don't like to make and enforce rules just for the sake of rules, so I "stick to my guns" mostly for safety issues, logistic necessity (like putting shoes on before going outside, or putting a diaper on before being allowed to climb on the bed), and the daily bedtime routine. I figure these create enough battles of wills as it is! Fortunately, we have a kid with whom some discipline problems - aggression for example - just never come up at all.

So I dunno - does that make me permissive or authoritative?

It's not making rules just for the sake of rules; it's about limits and boundaries. If a child doesn't have them, s/he grows up spoiled/lacking self-discipline and has a really hard time accepting responsibility, for example, at work as an adult.

One of my cousins was raised permissively and was given everything without working for it; that happened throughout her life, and she ended up being a spoiled child who expected her parents to give her everything like the expensive wedding for over 200 guests, the honeymoon, new car at 16, etc., downpayment on a new house and help with the mortgage. I don't think she can handle anything on her own, and she's 30.

I'm definitely an authoritative parent. It feels right for me, and I read up on the areas I struggle with or simply for reinforcement.

I agree with what @Cloud said about other people sometimes thinking authoritative = permissive. (@Cloud, I'm sure you remember that discussion on my blog!) It's not about making rules for the sake of rules or the child becoming a spoiled terror if you don't lay down the law and enforce it. IMO, it's about finding the rules that work for your family and the consquences for breaking those rules. It's about following through with what you say you are going to do. And, at least for me, it's about being sure your kids understand why the rules are in place so they can develop the cognitive abilities to make wise decisions on their own, within age-appropriate boundries.

I really love @Jennifer's point about fairness. Granted, that is also something that is very dependent on everyone involved and their definition of fair, but it should not be overlooked. And I want to point out that fair is not the same as equal. As in, the baby is allowed to put toys in his mouth, but the pre-school is told not to. The rule is fair for the pre-schooler, because she is old enough to learn not to and she's in a pre-school environment where she brings home enough germs as it is!

@Bella - Great descriptions of the parenting styles! Thanks for breaking it down and opening the discussion.

Is it possible to be one with one child and another with another? As in, I think overall I am authoritative, or at least I try to follow that style. But when it comes to the older child, I tend to be more authoritarian, and with the younger, permissive, just because I can't be in two places at once...

I'm starting to wonder if we are permissive. We really don't have a lot of rules. Aggression/hitting/biting are not permitted and in the past have been dealt with swiftly, but we haven't seen any of those in a very long time. The bops mostly gets what she asks for. When what she asks for is not safe or possible or is very inconvenient, we comfort and distract her. When she doesn't want to do something, we usually use playful parenting to get our way. (The latest: she's been resisting each step of the bedtime routine. But if I let her read my watch and tell her that at 8:37 we will be taking off your clothes she's excited to move to the next step.) When she is having trouble communicating, we patiently sit with her and try to figure out what she is saying.

Is this permissive? Or just appropriate battle-choosing at the toddler stage?

We are in the authoratitive category, but that doesn't mean we don't stray ocassionally. I have mentioned that I am not much of a mourning (whoops, freudian slip!)morning person, and after patiently trying every technique under my belt to get the kids dressed and ready for breakfast, I often end up sounding like my old dad: bossy and pushy.

Otherwise, there is a lot of love, warmth and kindness, with definite boundaries and consequences for inapproriate behaviour, although to be honest, it is much easier to enforce with my 5 year old. I wonder sometimes if I am sending mixed messages when I 'fail' to enforce certain disciplinary action with the 3 year old for actions that I would otherwise punish in the 5 year old. For example hitting. The 5 year old rarely hits, but when he does he lashes out and he is given a time out and maybe misses out watching a dvd that afternoon. The 3 year old, who hits alot, but not hard, will be sent to her room, will come out after 10 seconds and then everything is hunky dory again.

Oh and while I'm here, can you give me some examples of 'shaming'? I am assuming it is telling a child he is stupid, lazy etc, but now you have me wondering if I am shaming my son when I tell him he doesn't seem to be listening to me or when I tell him to 'open your eyes!!'.


We strive to be authoritative, but often end up being permissive. I try not to make too many rules that are nonsensical and try to avoid rules that are just for our benefit. While I didn't have the worst childhood in the world, my parents were more the authoritarian type (especially my father) and I see the results of that in myself and in my brother. My parenting style is based on what I feel is right, not on what they did.

@Dr Confused- I think that if you're not seeing much aggression anymore you must be doing something right.

And I don't think there have to be a lot of rules, just clear boundaries that are enforced. I also think you can have very few rules if they are the "right" ones. I think I've seen you over on AskMoxie, so you're probably familiar with Hedra's "Safe, Respectful, and Kind" mantra. You can think of those as three rules to cover everything, right?

I'm not an expert, though, just another mom trying to muddle through. And I also fall on the "fewer rules is better" side of things.

I also really like @Jennifer's concept of letting fairness factor in. There is only so much I can expect my toddler to understand.

@Jennifer: I really like the idea of thinking about fairness as an additional, developmentally-informed dimension or consideration.

@Cloud: I DO think you'll change your story about how much you'll be willing to negotiate with your 12 year old. It may be a good thing to start using more and more collaborative problem-solving, negotiation, compromise, etc. as children grow into teenagers. They might need to feel we are respecting their opinions, that they can navigate choices on their own sometimes, that they can be trusted, and so on. I know you didn't mean that you wouldn't be doing these things with your teenager, but I just think it's an interesting point you bring up. We tend to think when kids REALLY understand our rules and their reasons, that we'll be much more consistent in enforcing them. But as they get older, they ALSO get smarter, more in need of autonomy, and basically also more rebellious. Yes, it'll be important for us to enforce rules then also, but I can imagine we'll be doing a whole lot of age-appropriate negotitions as well.

@Irene: I don't think you have to have a LOT of rules to be authoritative, just to place a high value on setting limits WHEN it's appropriate. If you have a kid who isn't acting out, then there's no reason to arbitrarily come up with, and enforce, rules (basically, what @Jennifer said in her first paragraph).

@caramama: Great point about the fact that what's fair can be very different for different kids. I think the age issue you bring up is bang on. I struggle with trying to be "equal" with my twin boys and often realize that even with kids the same AGE, what's fair can differ between them because of their temperaments. One of mine is worst with transitions than the other -- he tends to dawdle and daydream. Because my other is so insanely prompt and obedient, I sometimes forget that the dawdler is actually probably the "norm" and so I try to give the dawdler more advanced warnings for transitions, a little more patience with how long it takes him to finish stuff, etc. I think that's just being fair, given they're really quite different types of kids, but I don't think I'm being more "permissive" with one vs the other... If that makes any sense...

@fahmi: That's what I was trying to convey in my last comment to caramama; I think you use different strategies and approaches with different kids, according to what works, their temperament, their age, etc. But I still think for the parenting style typology to be worth anything, it should still describe a general parenting CONTEXT or philosophy, or general approach. So it's not just the specific parenting behaviour, but your parenting VALUES, I guess, that puts you in one category or another (e.g., how much you value warmth vs control/demandingness and how you balance these dimensions).

@Dr.Confused: I agree @Cloud, you seem to have very few behavioural problems, so you must be doing something right on. I suspect that by coming down on the hitting stuff early on, you have laid out clear expectations that you don't have to keep repeating and you're not reinforcing since it doesn't come up anymore. The question is: If your daughter WOULD start being mean to other kids or being hugely disrespectful to you or something like that, would you try to CHANGE that behaviour (doesn't matter how you would do it, but would you do SOMETHING)? If not, if you feel more like she would need to express whoever she is and be aloud to be authentic to anyone she chooses, then you may fall in the permissive camp. If, instead, you think that "hell no, my kid will not be aloud to speak rudely to those who take care of her or to be mean to other kids because she's having a bad day" then you may be more authoritative. Does this make any sense?

I've been looking at my parenting style/techniques/tendencies with a more critical eye lately and I think I've gotten way too lax in a let's negotiate EVERYTHING way. It's been very enlightening to read all these comments and take a look at what's really going on in my house. There's just no sitting down on this parenting job. Unless it's during a beautiful weekend nap! Bless the boy for napping today. :)

@fahmi, i find myself being more authoritarian with one kid than the other. Usually it's the older one because I myself am still trying to get the hang of being a parent of x-age with him. With the younger one, i have (most times) more patience and an idea of age-appropriate behavior and so i am more authoritative. Sometimes the roles reverse because their personalities come into play. So i agree that it's possible to switch.

Having been raised in an extremely authoritarian way i find that that is my default parenting strategy. There are many points where I know what I am demanding is more/too much. I have been working very hard to go more towards the authoritative and we give lots of warm fuzzies and positive reinforcement but still the need for "compliance and obedience" is just there intrinsically because that is what is ingrained.

Like @jennifer's husband sometimes in our house (my husband most often) but myself included we have a tendency to go overboard in our consequences and it happens most when we’re tired… but still it happens. But we’re constantly trying to learn and help/support each other in making better decisions. I hope that more of the authoritative comes as default with all the work we constantly are trying to put in.

I may have misled people if you think we aren't having any behaviour challenges. We don't see aggression anymore, but there is a lot of shrieking at our apartment. A lot. When the bops doesn't want to put on a diaper, she shrieks. When she is denied more chocolate, she shrieks. When she wakes in the middle of the night and isn't cuddled exactly right (the hand must be angled exactly this way on this hip) she shrieks. And then we either give her exactly what she wants (especially at 3am) or we distract her with something else.
Would I let her be aggressive with other kids? No. If she tried to hit a kid she would be swiftly removed from the situation and be put somewhere else to shriek for a bit, and then be distracted likely. I almost never see her around other kids but from what my husband says at the library story time she doesn't interact much and when she does it is very sweet with hugs and kisses. Would I let her be rude to us? Maybe? I'm not terribly hung up on politeness and if she yelled that she hated me, well, that's ok, and I still adore her, and she is allowed to feel however she wants and express it in ways that don't physically hurt people or property.
Both my husband and I had very authoritarian single mothers, his to the point of physical abuse, and so we're feeling our way here a little bit. My husband is more permissive than I am, and it is interesting trying to walk the line of both being true to your own parenting beliefs and negotiating that with a partner.

@Dr. Confused- I still think you're probably doing just fine. Toddlers shriek. It is part of their, um... charm. And you're definitely setting some boundaries.

But if you're feeling like you want more boundaries, I'll tell you how we do it, and maybe that will help. Hubby and I have discussed it pretty explicitly, because, like you and your husband, we have slightly different "natural" preferences. Anyway, we set aside some kid-free time to discuss what rules really matter to us. We came up with a list of things that we both agreed we should be strict about- these are primarily about safety and playing nice, but there are some other things in there, too. We also have some things that we are working on, but are not so rigid about- things like picking up toys at the end of the day. For things we've agreed to be strict about, we don't tend to budge. We may negotiate or distract to get our way, but we won't give in to what our daughter wants. On the "things we're working on", we try to be consistent in that if we tell her to pick up her toys, we follow through and get the toys picked up. But we don't always make a big deal about it- sometimes, she goes to bed with the toys not picked up.

After re-reading that rambling comment, I think I'm basically saying we choose our battles and try to only fight the ones that we're willing to fight to the end. So on a day when I'm really tired or stressed, I won't choose to fight the "pick up your toys" battle. I will, of course, always fight the "you can't squash your little sister" battle. Also, we've added more rules in as she has gotten older. Nothing earth-shattering, there, though. Basically, as she has developed the ability to follow rules like "don't throw your food on the floor" we have started enforcing them. For our daughter, any new rule takes about a week or two to "stick". She'll test the boundary for that time, and then settle in and (mostly) follow the rule.

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